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Post by raindear on May 2, 2007 15:20:47 GMT -5
Firefolk,
Things are not so bleak. If we could only restore a Catholic folk music tradition, you might find plenty of songs to sing along with.
Syme,
"We're exposed to ten thousand bigger temptations by stepping out of our room every day."
I am sorry - I overlooked this and it does deserve a response. While the "ten thousand bigger" part is certainly debatable, it is probably true that a pornographic magazine cover in the grocery store presents a greater temptation than "Beautiful Day" by U2. However, the problem with this argument is that the former is a temptation that we freely "impose" upon ourselves, while the latter is encountered unwillingly, of necessity.
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Post by bluemaydie on May 3, 2007 13:54:33 GMT -5
OK. Let me begin by saying that I haven't read the whole discussion. Not because I dislike the topic, but because it's one of those topics that tends to become "being in the world" vs. "being of the world" really fast, and then things just get screamy (at least in my experience). So take everything I say with a big ol' grain of salt.
Firefolk-- I love "Hell's Bells." I generally enjoy rocking out to AC/DC when they come on the radio. I also love Mozart. And I would argue that the temptations are the same in either. Mozart, after all, was probably a Mason, and "The Magic Flute" is at least as seductive (drawing the listener away from the true God) as "Hell's Bells." "The Magic Flute" might actually be more insidious, because it is more beautiful, and the darkness is harder to spot. Add to that the fact that Mozart was a carrer musician who wrote almost all his works for money. His Grand Mass in C Minor is one of the only pieces he wrote not on commission. In fact, he wrote it to thank God for bringing his wife safely through childbirth. And he never finished it. Beautiful music, but just as corrupt in its way as AC/DC. At least AC/DC has no pretensions to holiness. Although in all fairness I must add that when you learn how, Mozart is way more fun to sing along with than AC/DC.
In short, I tend to view rock music as one of those areas where the faithful can bring good out of bad. Actually, I think that about all the popular (and "vulgar") genres. Folk music only sounds cleaner if you don't catch the antiquated slang ("Gently, Johnny" anyone?).
So. Totally different note. The Arctic Monkeys are my new favorite band, and their lyrics, despite being laden with cuss words and Yorkshire dialect, are actually quite sharp. Good times had by all.
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Post by ampleforth on May 11, 2007 15:56:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure if anyone's made this point here yet, but I wonder if Raindear has ever listened to music from Latin America or Africa. Since the dawn of time, we've been dancing to loud beats and sexy melodies. And let me tell ya, it's hella fun! I see lots of hispanic names here on the Dappled Things masthead--Ruiz, Aparicio. How about we all step up in defense of Salsa, Merengue, Tango!
Seriously, loosen up man. If your idea of "New Evangelization" is the imposition of some sort of sober, northern European disposition towards art and the world, then count me out. And God help us all.
Meanwhile, I'm gonna go hit the dance floor and play soccer with a flaming soccer ball (as we do on the Feast of St John, with alcohol and a burning effigy of Judas Iscariot).
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Post by bluemaydie on May 11, 2007 16:11:29 GMT -5
Hey, Ampleforth, may I ask you a question?
The music director at my parish is adding a lot of "Latino-sounding" music to the already bad, wannbe-pop-stylings of contemporary Catholic liturgical music. To my untrained (in Latin music) ear, everything the music director chooses sounds exactly like what I hear being played during birthday parties when little kids are swinging at a pinata. In other words, it sounds like wannabe-pop-music in Spanish; it sounds like the mariachi bands I hear at local Mexican restaurants (I live in Texas, by the way). So my question is, what does Latin American liturgical music sound like?
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Post by Bernardo on May 11, 2007 20:09:07 GMT -5
He, he. I've tried to keep a neutral stance on this subject but ampleforth has pressed the right buttons! I love dancing Salsa and Merengue, and I love listening to a lot of other types of Latin American music. Colombian Cumbia (the *real* Cumbia, not the distortions that pass for it these days), Llanero music, classic Vallenatos, Joropos, and other folkloric styles -- many of them influenced by African beats carried over by slaves -- are indeed very joyful and festive music forms that might not fare well under raindear's parameters for "well ordered" music. For the most part, I think their effect was to make the culture warmer and more lighthearted.
I can't speak for all of Latin America with regards to liturgical music, but I can tell you a bit about Colombia. The music I experienced at church there when I was growing up was not great -- mostly the Spanish equivalent of pseudo-folk Marty Haugen type stuff -- but it certainly wasn't anything like Salsa or Merengue. It was not dancing music, it was listening music. For that reason now that I live in the US I tend to stay away from Spanish Masses. I get completely distracted when I hear party music in a church. I *would* be curious to see how a Mariachi Mass would work out, as there is actually a type of Mariachi music that is quite beautiful and restrained, and *might* just sound nice at Mass. For the most part, though, just give me some nice Gregorian Chants and classic hymns and I'll be a happy man.
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Post by cristina on May 11, 2007 21:26:35 GMT -5
How about we all step up in defense of Salsa, Merengue, Tango! My sister is a musicologist and one of her specializations is Afro-Latin music. She showed us a video of a lecture-concert held at her college, and one of the pieces performed was a Cuban song -- with a slow Cuban beat -- and the song was Ave Maria Morena. It was a song to the Blessed Virgin.
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Post by cristina on May 11, 2007 21:32:23 GMT -5
He, he. I've tried to keep a neutral stance on this subject but ampleforth has pressed the right buttons! I love dancing Salsa and Merengue, and I love listening to a lot of other types of Latin American music. Colombian Cumbia (the *real* Cumbia, not the distortions that pass for it these days), Llanero music, classic Vallenatos, Joropos, and other folkloric styles -- many of them influenced by African beats carried over by slaves -- are indeed very joyful and festive music forms that might not fare well under raindear's parameters for "well ordered" music. For the most part, I think their effect was to make the culture warmer and more lighthearted. I agree; it's hard not to like Latin American music. And while we must admit that the music can sometimes be associated with debauchery, I think any debauchery that arises comes from the context, not from the music alone. Combining the wild batucada beat with scantilly clad women and unrestrained drinking might be conducive to debauchery, but playing it for wholesome dancing in family gatherings -- like what we do in our family -- would hardly be questionable.
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Post by cristina on May 11, 2007 21:34:33 GMT -5
BTW, I just learned that the jazzist Dave Brubeck is a Catholic. He did a beautiful concert with music that he based on the mass.
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Post by firefolk on May 13, 2007 8:05:27 GMT -5
I just wanted to add that AC/DC is more fun if you imagine Emperor Palpatine on lead vocals. "Dirty deeds and they're done dirt cheap--dirty deeds and they're done dirt cheap--take it, Lord Vader!" "Yes, my master." [Insert kickin' Sith guitar solo.] Good stuff, baby.
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Post by bluemaydie on May 14, 2007 8:36:25 GMT -5
Firefolf-- Right on!
Bernardo & Cristina-- Any idea where I can listen to some of the recommended Latin music? Bernardo's phrase "dancing music" perfectly sums up the majority of what's sung in Spanish at my parish. Thanks!
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Post by raindear on May 14, 2007 9:29:49 GMT -5
Hello again,
I must admit, Latin music is very catchy. However, I am not sure how much evidence there is that it has any any roots in Spanish Catholic culture. The Merengue and Salsa appear to be fairly "modern" forms of dance, which became popular in the 19th and 20th centuries. Flamenco dancing came from gypsies.
In any case, I am a little discouraged by the responses posted here. Christianity demands radical transformation of life, and this forum is dedicated to a new flowering of Catholic art and culture. When I present a reasoned challenge to popular music, in the end, the only response offered to science, tradition and philosophy is:
"Give me a break. It's fun to listen to so it cannot be wrong."
There is also a common misapprehension that the alternative to popular music must be boring and stuffy. Well, let me break the news to you, mankind has always enjoyed dancing and festivity. But there have been times in history when, from their very culture, Christians understood virtue and pleasure and festivity more truly than most of us do now. So, if we look to their musical precepts and their musical forms for guidance, we might find there room for joyful creativity, within the bounds of order and grace.
In the inimitable words of Chesterton: "Catholic doctrine and discipline may be walls; but they are the walls of a playground. Christianity is the only frame which has preserved the pleasure of Paganism. We might fancy some children playing on the flat grassy top of some tall island in the sea. So long as there was a wall round the cliff's edge they could fling themselves into every frantic game and make the place the noisiest of nurseries. But the walls were knocked down, leaving the naked peril of the precipice. They did not fall over; but when their friends returned to them they were all huddled in terror in the centre of the island; and their song had ceased." (Orthodoxy, Chapter IX)
Pax!
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Post by bluemaydie on May 14, 2007 10:45:07 GMT -5
Raindear--
Perhaps you could provide me with some examples--not only of music appropriate for Christians but the settings in which it is appropriate. Gregorian chant is obviously inappropriate for socail gatherings, but with what shoudl we replace it? I think examples would help me understand your point of view more clearly.
Thanks, Bluemaydie
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Post by raindear on May 14, 2007 13:42:29 GMT -5
Bluemaydie, Happy to oblige. At the end of this post, I've pasted links for sound clip of some of the songs. You can open them with Windows Media Player. [Of course, these will all be examples of "ordered" music that fits my preference. I am sure there are lots of other kinds of "ordered music" out there.] For social gatherings, it makes a big difference whether the music is background or whether it is a focus of the festivity. My friends enjoy singing, so music-making is often an important element of our social gatherings. We enjoy singing bluegrass Gospel music (like "What Wondrous Love" by Blue Highway), Celtic songs (like "The Carls 'O Dysart" by the Tannahill Weavers or "Annan Waters" by the Voice Squad), madrigals (like "Can't Buy Me Love" by the King Singers) as well as many campfire rounds. I also know a family which sings Ukrainian folk songs of haunting beauty. I've heard some lovely French Canadian music played on violin and guitar, and some crazy fiddling. For dancing, it naturally depends on the genre. A few years ago, I discovered Contra and English Country dance. These are sort of like square dances, but less "prairie." Contra dances are very lively and athletic (to music like "Gramma" by Natalie McMaster) and English Country dances are more elegant and formal (think A&E Pride and Prejudice). At first, the dance forms are a little difficult to learn, as they often involve complex patterns and steps. However, once learned, many young people prefer these dances, being more comfortable following a set dance form and dancing with a whole line of people instead of just one. Line dances are also entertaining for those watching on the sides. For pair dancing, I think waltzes are great. Beautiful, ordered waltz music is difficult to find, but it's out there. Gregorian chant is not suitable for social gatherings, but hymns are not entirely unsuitable. In fact, for centuries, devotional music like hymns was not part of the liturgy - it was folk music. Protestant liturgy lacked the substance of the Catholic Mass, so they tried to beef it up with hymns. Now they've become a universal element of liturgical music, so we tend to associate them with church, but that was not always the case. What Wondrous Love:http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000000E85001012/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_012/002-8785890-0837656 Carls O'Dysart:http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B00009V7RN001001/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_001/002-8785890-0837656 Annan Waters:http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000005CPE001007/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_007/002-8785890-0837656 Can't Buy Me Love:http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000002RQO001006/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_006/002-8785890-0837656 Orange Blossom Special: www.scythianmusic.com/mp3/ao3hi.m3uGreek Fiddle: www.scythianmusic.com/mp3/ao6hi.m3uGramma:http://www.nataliemacmaster.com/audio/imh/03.mp3 Well Hall by Bare Necessities: www.amazon.com/English-Country-Dances-Bare-Necessities/dp/B0000003OM/ref=sr_1_1/002-8785890-0837656?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179167157&sr=1-1Sorry about these awkward links. I still cannot figure out how to put in a hidden link tag.
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Post by katycarl on May 14, 2007 21:05:57 GMT -5
Yikes! Raindear's being pretty hard on us. We will all have to brush up our science, tradition and reason in the next volley of questions and responses. *removes tongue from cheek* -- In all seriousness, thanks for the audio clips; those were fun. I don't think the opposition being presented is at all against that kind of music, or even in favor of music that's really and obviously disordered (which I think we all recognize exists). Obviously I can't speak for others, but I find myself wondering if there isn't more of a middle way that incorporates whatever may be good in contemporary music and leaves what's bad. Or do you think there's any good in contemporary music, or am I confusing "contemporary" with a particular set of styles in that question?
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Post by cristina on May 15, 2007 5:15:06 GMT -5
Hello again, I must admit, Latin music is very catchy. However, I am not sure how much evidence there is that it has any any roots in Spanish Catholic culture. The Merengue and Salsa appear to be fairly "modern" forms of dance, which became popular in the 19th and 20th centuries. Latin American music is a marriage between European melodies and, as Bernardo pointed out, African rhythms brought by the slaves who worked the Latin American plantations. The more modern forms of Latin American music all evolved from this mix.
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